[Pdl-porters] Can #pdl ideas -> PDL development?

[Chris Marshall]

This is a brief note on a frustration I have trying to encourage and
coordinate PDL development efforts.

A persistent difficulty is that there is a sort of impedance mismatch
between users of #pdl and perldl or pdl-porters list users in terms of
expectations and how problems might be posed and solved. Unfortunately,
there are some pretty interesting points being discussed but to date, no
one has figured out a way to bring those ideas into perldl or pdl-porters
for the record. I've tried reviewing the logs when I am able to and
responding asynchronously. That didn't work because the difference is more
one of expectations between the user approaches rather than just the
discussions themselves.

I'm not able to participate regularly in #pdl but I did try to join #pdl
more often with the hopes of improving communication around the Aug 2014
timeframe. The outcome wasn't positive in the sense that I burned several
days of PDL time trying to communicate with little PDL development to show
and no idea about how better to get #pdl ideas into PDL development. I'm
happy to have some time this winter to get back to PDL development. I
would be happier if we could figure out how to keep development and
contributors moving constructively forward more consistently.

Here are some of the topics from the last couple of weeks that were
interesting to me and some thoughts

* A new perl array extension Array::APX
- It appears to be perl only
- It might be useful that PDL::Tiny support a perl-only version (same
sugar, no XS)
* Inline::ExtUtils::Depends support for PDL
- Still working on the git clean up
- It'll be in PDL-2.008 or sooner with help
* PDL release schedule
- We're on an about 1 release per year
- Mostly developer and test/verification limited
- PDL is *used* for research and stability is important
* PDL3 == second system
- PDL3 was a term to separate PDL-2.x architecture from
a refactored implementation
- For stability, the idea was to use PDL3 to reimplement the PDL core
- Allow support for PDL-2.x
- Ideally PDL3 core could be used instead of PDL/Basic/Core stuff
- Trying to avoid Numpy->Numeric->NumPy mess that python went through
* PDL::Tiny
- POGL (Perl OpenGL) needs a minimal but powerful array capability
- Other modules reinvent computation tools
- Gives a chance for direct work on the new PDL3 core capability
- Setting up github for fast iteration and my own education
- not coupled to PDL-2.x development except desire interoperable
* RPerl for PDL3
- ?
* Support for row major and col major ordering in PDL3
- PDL3 (hence PDL::Tiny) has improved type and data layout support
- Specific use cases on what is desired are needed
- It should be up to the user which data ordering is used
- To what level can this be supported?
* Use of Roles in PDL3 / PDL::Tiny
- Yes!
- Allow better structure for PDL
- PDL3 as a whole <-> like many PDL-2.x capabilities
- But can look at by role/component
- Elegant, general, compatible with perl5 oo and perl6 oo ideas
* Discussion of *.pd -> *.xs.PL
- *.pd was the original file name for PP XS extensions
- given the issues with http://search.cpan.org and http://metacpan.org
changing to *.xs.PL seems to make sense.
- Might be worth looking at perldl and pdl-porters archives for previous
discussions and decision process on the topic
* Plan for PDL3
- Start kernel out
- Build in types, data, other requirements
- Moo[se] seems elegant and powerful way to express
- Performance is king so we need to monitor
- idea use a C-OO framework to implement PDL3 OO at the C layer
- Call perl from C
- Call C from perl
- PDL3 methods could be called from both/either
- Allow interoperate with both C and C++ levels of libraries
- Enlightenment Object model is possible candidate
- Need to develop specification
- Add support for Moo roles and method modifiers
- Seems easier to start here then to roll our own
* Discussion of moving PDL web site to static github
- Seems reasonable but needs support
- We didn't have any volunteers the last time this was proposed
- With maintainer it would be nice to have more timely web support

As you can see, there is a lot going on of interest that would be nice to
have input into our development work. I welcome any ideas or further
discussion. Please feel free to join #pdl for discussion but *please* take
the time to collect the good ideas and bring them in for more formal
discussion. I hate to see good ideas going to waste but, frankly, this
pulling gold out of the stream bed by hand is something that should be
handled by the #pdl discussion participants themselves.

Suggestions to make that possible, VERY welcome,
Chris


*

[Joel Berger]

Post by Chris Marshall
Discussion of moving PDL web site to static github
- Seems reasonable but needs support
- We didn't have any volunteers the last time this was proposed
- With maintainer it would be nice to have more timely web support

Just to correct this point, not only did I volunteer to do this, I did it
and it is running at http://pdlporters.github.io/ . There were only a few
minor nits, first that metacpan's documentation (from which the static site
pulls pod) doesn't render all the pod in PDL for reasons being discussed on
another thread. Second the news is now out of date, though that's easy
enough to correct. Third, I did port much, but not all, of the wiki to
github wiki, perhaps someone could check it and port the remainder?

Joel

Post by Chris Marshall
This is a brief note on a frustration I have trying to encourage and
coordinate PDL development efforts.
A persistent difficulty is that there is a sort of impedance mismatch
between users of #pdl and perldl or pdl-porters list users in terms of
expectations and how problems might be posed and solved. Unfortunately,
there are some pretty interesting points being discussed but to date, no
one has figured out a way to bring those ideas into perldl or pdl-porters
for the record. I've tried reviewing the logs when I am able to and
responding asynchronously. That didn't work because the difference is more
one of expectations between the user approaches rather than just the
discussions themselves.
I'm not able to participate regularly in #pdl but I did try to join #pdl
more often with the hopes of improving communication around the Aug 2014
timeframe. The outcome wasn't positive in the sense that I burned several
days of PDL time trying to communicate with little PDL development to show
and no idea about how better to get #pdl ideas into PDL development. I'm
happy to have some time this winter to get back to PDL development. I
would be happier if we could figure out how to keep development and
contributors moving constructively forward more consistently.
Here are some of the topics from the last couple of weeks that were
interesting to me and some thoughts
* A new perl array extension Array::APX
- It appears to be perl only
- It might be useful that PDL::Tiny support a perl-only version (same
sugar, no XS)
* Inline::ExtUtils::Depends support for PDL
- Still working on the git clean up
- It'll be in PDL-2.008 or sooner with help
* PDL release schedule
- We're on an about 1 release per year
- Mostly developer and test/verification limited
- PDL is *used* for research and stability is important
* PDL3 == second system
- PDL3 was a term to separate PDL-2.x architecture from
a refactored implementation
- For stability, the idea was to use PDL3 to reimplement the PDL core
- Allow support for PDL-2.x
- Ideally PDL3 core could be used instead of PDL/Basic/Core stuff
- Trying to avoid Numpy->Numeric->NumPy mess that python went through
* PDL::Tiny
- POGL (Perl OpenGL) needs a minimal but powerful array capability
- Other modules reinvent computation tools
- Gives a chance for direct work on the new PDL3 core capability
- Setting up github for fast iteration and my own education
- not coupled to PDL-2.x development except desire interoperable
* RPerl for PDL3
- ?
* Support for row major and col major ordering in PDL3
- PDL3 (hence PDL::Tiny) has improved type and data layout support
- Specific use cases on what is desired are needed
- It should be up to the user which data ordering is used
- To what level can this be supported?
* Use of Roles in PDL3 / PDL::Tiny
- Yes!
- Allow better structure for PDL
- PDL3 as a whole <-> like many PDL-2.x capabilities
- But can look at by role/component
- Elegant, general, compatible with perl5 oo and perl6 oo ideas
* Discussion of *.pd -> *.xs.PL
- *.pd was the original file name for PP XS extensions
- given the issues with http://search.cpan.org and http://metacpan.org
changing to *.xs.PL seems to make sense.
- Might be worth looking at perldl and pdl-porters archives for previous
discussions and decision process on the topic
* Plan for PDL3
- Start kernel out
- Build in types, data, other requirements
- Moo[se] seems elegant and powerful way to express
- Performance is king so we need to monitor
- idea use a C-OO framework to implement PDL3 OO at the C layer
- Call perl from C
- Call C from perl
- PDL3 methods could be called from both/either
- Allow interoperate with both C and C++ levels of libraries
- Enlightenment Object model is possible candidate
- Need to develop specification
- Add support for Moo roles and method modifiers
- Seems easier to start here then to roll our own
* Discussion of moving PDL web site to static github
- Seems reasonable but needs support
- We didn't have any volunteers the last time this was proposed
- With maintainer it would be nice to have more timely web support
As you can see, there is a lot going on of interest that would be nice to
have input into our development work. I welcome any ideas or further
discussion. Please feel free to join #pdl for discussion but *please* take
the time to collect the good ideas and bring them in for more formal
discussion. I hate to see good ideas going to waste but, frankly, this
pulling gold out of the stream bed by hand is something that should be
handled by the #pdl discussion participants themselves.
Suggestions to make that possible, VERY welcome,
Chris
*
_______________________________________________
PDL-porters mailing list
http://mailman.jach.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/pdl-porters

[Chris Marshall]

I'm pretty sure no one volunteered to support and maintain the web page.
If I misunderstood you, I'm very sorry as we could have had the github
pages for quite a while now.

--Chris

Post by Joel Berger

Post by Chris Marshall
Discussion of moving PDL web site to static github
- Seems reasonable but needs support
- We didn't have any volunteers the last time this was proposed
- With maintainer it would be nice to have more timely web support

Just to correct this point, not only did I volunteer to do this, I did it
and it is running at http://pdlporters.github.io/ . There were only a few
minor nits, first that metacpan's documentation (from which the static site
pulls pod) doesn't render all the pod in PDL for reasons being discussed on
another thread. Second the news is now out of date, though that's easy
enough to correct. Third, I did port much, but not all, of the wiki to
github wiki, perhaps someone could check it and port the remainder?
Joel

Post by Chris Marshall
This is a brief note on a frustration I have trying to encourage and
coordinate PDL development efforts.
A persistent difficulty is that there is a sort of impedance mismatch
between users of #pdl and perldl or pdl-porters list users in terms of
expectations and how problems might be posed and solved. Unfortunately,
there are some pretty interesting points being discussed but to date, no
one has figured out a way to bring those ideas into perldl or pdl-porters
for the record. I've tried reviewing the logs when I am able to and
responding asynchronously. That didn't work because the difference is more
one of expectations between the user approaches rather than just the
discussions themselves.
I'm not able to participate regularly in #pdl but I did try to join #pdl
more often with the hopes of improving communication around the Aug 2014
timeframe. The outcome wasn't positive in the sense that I burned several
days of PDL time trying to communicate with little PDL development to show
and no idea about how better to get #pdl ideas into PDL development. I'm
happy to have some time this winter to get back to PDL development. I
would be happier if we could figure out how to keep development and
contributors moving constructively forward more consistently.
Here are some of the topics from the last couple of weeks that were
interesting to me and some thoughts
* A new perl array extension Array::APX
- It appears to be perl only
- It might be useful that PDL::Tiny support a perl-only version (same
sugar, no XS)
* Inline::ExtUtils::Depends support for PDL
- Still working on the git clean up
- It'll be in PDL-2.008 or sooner with help
* PDL release schedule
- We're on an about 1 release per year
- Mostly developer and test/verification limited
- PDL is *used* for research and stability is important
* PDL3 == second system
- PDL3 was a term to separate PDL-2.x architecture from
a refactored implementation
- For stability, the idea was to use PDL3 to reimplement the PDL core
- Allow support for PDL-2.x
- Ideally PDL3 core could be used instead of PDL/Basic/Core stuff
- Trying to avoid Numpy->Numeric->NumPy mess that python went through
* PDL::Tiny
- POGL (Perl OpenGL) needs a minimal but powerful array capability
- Other modules reinvent computation tools
- Gives a chance for direct work on the new PDL3 core capability
- Setting up github for fast iteration and my own education
- not coupled to PDL-2.x development except desire interoperable
* RPerl for PDL3
- ?
* Support for row major and col major ordering in PDL3
- PDL3 (hence PDL::Tiny) has improved type and data layout support
- Specific use cases on what is desired are needed
- It should be up to the user which data ordering is used
- To what level can this be supported?
* Use of Roles in PDL3 / PDL::Tiny
- Yes!
- Allow better structure for PDL
- PDL3 as a whole <-> like many PDL-2.x capabilities
- But can look at by role/component
- Elegant, general, compatible with perl5 oo and perl6 oo ideas
* Discussion of *.pd -> *.xs.PL
- *.pd was the original file name for PP XS extensions
- given the issues with http://search.cpan.org and
http://metacpan.org
changing to *.xs.PL seems to make sense.
- Might be worth looking at perldl and pdl-porters archives for previous
discussions and decision process on the topic
* Plan for PDL3
- Start kernel out
- Build in types, data, other requirements
- Moo[se] seems elegant and powerful way to express
- Performance is king so we need to monitor
- idea use a C-OO framework to implement PDL3 OO at the C layer
- Call perl from C
- Call C from perl
- PDL3 methods could be called from both/either
- Allow interoperate with both C and C++ levels of libraries
- Enlightenment Object model is possible candidate
- Need to develop specification
- Add support for Moo roles and method modifiers
- Seems easier to start here then to roll our own
* Discussion of moving PDL web site to static github
- Seems reasonable but needs support
- We didn't have any volunteers the last time this was proposed
- With maintainer it would be nice to have more timely web support
As you can see, there is a lot going on of interest that would be nice to
have input into our development work. I welcome any ideas or further
discussion. Please feel free to join #pdl for discussion but *please* take
the time to collect the good ideas and bring them in for more formal
discussion. I hate to see good ideas going to waste but, frankly, this
pulling gold out of the stream bed by hand is something that should be
handled by the #pdl discussion participants themselves.
Suggestions to make that possible, VERY welcome,
Chris
*
_______________________________________________
PDL-porters mailing list
http://mailman.jach.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/pdl-porters

[Ed .]

The volunteers are in place. Surely it’s time to switch over?

From: Chris Marshall
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2014 10:14 PM
To: Joel Berger
Cc: pdl-porters
Subject: Re: [Pdl-porters] Can #pdl ideas -> PDL development?

I'm pretty sure no one volunteered to support and maintain the web page.

If I misunderstood you, I'm very sorry as we could have had the github

pages for quite a while now.


--Chris

Post by Chris Marshall
Discussion of moving PDL web site to static github
- Seems reasonable but needs support
- We didn't have any volunteers the last time this was proposed
- With maintainer it would be nice to have more timely web support

Just to correct this point, not only did I volunteer to do this, I did it and it is running at http://pdlporters.github.io/ . There were only a few minor nits, first that metacpan's documentation (from which the static site pulls pod) doesn't render all the pod in PDL for reasons being discussed on another thread. Second the news is now out of date, though that's easy enough to correct. Third, I did port much, but not all, of the wiki to github wiki, perhaps someone could check it and port the remainder?

Joel

On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 9:26 AM, Chris Marshall <***@gmail.com> wrote:

This is a brief note on a frustration I have trying to encourage and coordinate PDL development efforts.


A persistent difficulty is that there is a sort of impedance mismatch between users of #pdl and perldl or pdl-porters list users in terms of expectations and how problems might be posed and solved. Unfortunately, there are some pretty interesting points being discussed but to date, no one has figured out a way to bring those ideas into perldl or pdl-porters for the record. I've tried reviewing the logs when I am able to and responding asynchronously. That didn't work because the difference is more one of expectations between the user approaches rather than just the discussions themselves.


I'm not able to participate regularly in #pdl but I did try to join #pdl more often with the hopes of improving communication around the Aug 2014 timeframe. The outcome wasn't positive in the sense that I burned several days of PDL time trying to communicate with little PDL development to show and no idea about how better to get #pdl ideas into PDL development. I'm happy to have some time this winter to get back to PDL development. I would be happier if we could figure out how to keep development and contributors moving constructively forward more consistently.


Here are some of the topics from the last couple of weeks that were interesting to me and some thoughts


* A new perl array extension Array::APX

- It appears to be perl only

- It might be useful that PDL::Tiny support a perl-only version (same sugar, no XS)

* Inline::ExtUtils::Depends support for PDL

- Still working on the git clean up

- It'll be in PDL-2.008 or sooner with help

* PDL release schedule

- We're on an about 1 release per year

- Mostly developer and test/verification limited

- PDL is *used* for research and stability is important

* PDL3 == second system

- PDL3 was a term to separate PDL-2.x architecture from

a refactored implementation

- For stability, the idea was to use PDL3 to reimplement the PDL core

- Allow support for PDL-2.x

- Ideally PDL3 core could be used instead of PDL/Basic/Core stuff

- Trying to avoid Numpy->Numeric->NumPy mess that python went through

* PDL::Tiny

- POGL (Perl OpenGL) needs a minimal but powerful array capability

- Other modules reinvent computation tools

- Gives a chance for direct work on the new PDL3 core capability

- Setting up github for fast iteration and my own education

- not coupled to PDL-2.x development except desire interoperable

* RPerl for PDL3
- ?

* Support for row major and col major ordering in PDL3

- PDL3 (hence PDL::Tiny) has improved type and data layout support

- Specific use cases on what is desired are needed

- It should be up to the user which data ordering is used

- To what level can this be supported?

* Use of Roles in PDL3 / PDL::Tiny

- Yes!

- Allow better structure for PDL

- PDL3 as a whole <-> like many PDL-2.x capabilities

- But can look at by role/component

- Elegant, general, compatible with perl5 oo and perl6 oo ideas

* Discussion of *.pd -> *.xs.PL

- *.pd was the original file name for PP XS extensions

- given the issues with http://search.cpan.org and http://metacpan.org

changing to *.xs.PL seems to make sense.

- Might be worth looking at perldl and pdl-porters archives for previous

discussions and decision process on the topic

* Plan for PDL3

- Start kernel out

- Build in types, data, other requirements

- Moo[se] seems elegant and powerful way to express

- Performance is king so we need to monitor

- idea use a C-OO framework to implement PDL3 OO at the C layer

- Call perl from C

- Call C from perl

- PDL3 methods could be called from both/either

- Allow interoperate with both C and C++ levels of libraries

- Enlightenment Object model is possible candidate

- Need to develop specification

- Add support for Moo roles and method modifiers

- Seems easier to start here then to roll our own

* Discussion of moving PDL web site to static github

- Seems reasonable but needs support

- We didn't have any volunteers the last time this was proposed

- With maintainer it would be nice to have more timely web support


As you can see, there is a lot going on of interest that would be nice to have input into our development work. I welcome any ideas or further discussion. Please feel free to join #pdl for discussion but *please* take the time to collect the good ideas and bring them in for more formal discussion. I hate to see good ideas going to waste but, frankly, this pulling gold out of the stream bed by hand is something that should be handled by the #pdl discussion participants themselves.


Suggestions to make that possible, VERY welcome,
Chris




*


_______________________________________________
PDL-porters mailing list
PDL-***@jach.hawaii.edu
http://mailman.jach.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/pdl-porters






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Chris Marshall]

As far as I've seen, the situation hasn't changed. Joel implemented most
of the static pages on github (he says there's a little bit more that needs
to be done). Still no volunteer to support and maintain the page on github.

Post by Ed .
The volunteers are in place. Surely it’s time to switch over?
*Sent:* Monday, December 22, 2014 10:14 PM
*Subject:* Re: [Pdl-porters] Can #pdl ideas -> PDL development?
I'm pretty sure no one volunteered to support and maintain the web page.
If I misunderstood you, I'm very sorry as we could have had the github
pages for quite a while now.
--Chris

Post by Joel Berger

Post by Chris Marshall
Discussion of moving PDL web site to static github
- Seems reasonable but needs support
- We didn't have any volunteers the last time this was proposed
- With maintainer it would be nice to have more timely web support

Just to correct this point, not only did I volunteer to do this, I did it
and it is running at http://pdlporters.github.io/ . There were only a
few minor nits, first that metacpan's documentation (from which the static
site pulls pod) doesn't render all the pod in PDL for reasons being
discussed on another thread. Second the news is now out of date, though
that's easy enough to correct. Third, I did port much, but not all, of the
wiki to github wiki, perhaps someone could check it and port the remainder?
Joel

[Joel Berger]

Chris, if you read the opening sentence of my first email in this chain, I
say explicitly that I did volunteer to maintain the site. And that would be

Post by Chris Marshall
This was with regards to moving the PDL web pages to github and not about

relocating the pdl project from sf.net to github.com.

I'm not interested in maintaining a separate site for any other reason than
to facilitate that relocation. The current PHP-based site works just fine
on sf.net. The reason I recreated it via "static" javascript was, as I hope
you'll recall, was because the hosting of the site was one of several
blockers for making such a move. Another was the wiki.

The mailing lists are, I believe, hosted elsewhere, though if I recall,
there was some doubt about the continued ability to host them out of
hawaii. I can't recall the details but I seem to recall this. Perhaps I am
wrong?

What else is there blocking such a move? Will. Its ok by me if the PDL
Porters choose to keep their development on sf.net. This is not my choice
alone, certainly everyone gets a voice and mine is only one. I know that
projects on github get more traffic and contributions than do others. They
also get far more contributions "out of the blue" by people without commit
bits or even without prior introduction. This is the way of github and it
is why so many open source projects moved there so quickly.

I want that for PDL and I have done what I can to facilitate that move.
With that hope, I will gladly contribute that time and effort, because I
believe that such a move is in PDL's interest. I will do so even now that I
rarely use PDL, because I think it is an important project for Perl5 and it
is a way that I can help.

Without that hope, I have no interest in maintaining a parallel PDL
website, and neither is one necessary.

Joel

Post by Chris Marshall
As far as I've seen, the situation hasn't changed. Joel implemented most
of the static pages on github (he says there's a little bit more that needs
to be done). Still no volunteer to support and maintain the page on github.

Post by Ed .
The volunteers are in place. Surely it’s time to switch over?
*Sent:* Monday, December 22, 2014 10:14 PM
*Subject:* Re: [Pdl-porters] Can #pdl ideas -> PDL development?
I'm pretty sure no one volunteered to support and maintain the web page.
If I misunderstood you, I'm very sorry as we could have had the github
pages for quite a while now.
--Chris

Post by Joel Berger

Post by Chris Marshall
Discussion of moving PDL web site to static github
- Seems reasonable but needs support
- We didn't have any volunteers the last time this was proposed
- With maintainer it would be nice to have more timely web support

Just to correct this point, not only did I volunteer to do this, I did
it and it is running at http://pdlporters.github.io/ . There were only
a few minor nits, first that metacpan's documentation (from which the
static site pulls pod) doesn't render all the pod in PDL for reasons being
discussed on another thread. Second the news is now out of date, though
that's easy enough to correct. Third, I did port much, but not all, of the
wiki to github wiki, perhaps someone could check it and port the remainder?
Joel

_______________________________________________
PDL-porters mailing list
http://mailman.jach.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/pdl-porters

[Chris Marshall]

Post by Joel Berger
Chris, if you read the opening sentence of my first email
in this chain, I say explicitly that I did volunteer to

support == yes

Post by Joel Berger

Post by Chris Marshall
This was with regards to moving the PDL web pages to
github and not about relocating the pdl project from sf.net
to github.com.

I'm not interested in maintaining a separate site for
any other reason than to facilitate that relocation. The
current PHP-based site works just fine on sf.net.

support == no

Post by Joel Berger
The reason I recreated it via "static" javascript was, as I
hope you'll recall, was because the hosting of the site was
one of several blockers for making such a move. Another was
the wiki.

I proposed an evolutionary approach to a move to github where the project
site would continue at sf.net and the development would occur on github
with releases continuing through sf.net until the decision was made to
officially move the project site.

Post by Joel Berger
The mailing lists are, I believe, hosted elsewhere, though
if I recall, there was some doubt about the continued
ability to host them out of hawaii. I can't recall the
details but I seem to recall this. Perhaps I am wrong?

The lists are in the process of being migrated to sf.net and something I
would like to complete by the PDL-2.008 release timeframe.

Post by Joel Berger
What else is there blocking such a move? Will. Its ok by
me if the PDL Porters choose to keep their development on
sf.net. This is not my choice alone, certainly everyone
gets a voice and mine is only one. I know that projects
on github get more traffic and contributions than do
others. They also get far more contributions "out of the
blue" by people without commit bits or even without prior
introduction. This is the way of github and it is why so
many open source projects moved there so quickly.

For me the biggest blocker is ensuring that PDL continue to exist.

I originally volunteered to be the PDL release manager in order to support
some new development for PDL-2.4.3. Since then, I've been working to
improve the portability of PDL, the ability to build PDL on any of the
major perl platforms and to add bug fixes, and enhancements. This has
generally resulted in a PDL release every year or better and passing almost
100% of CPAN Testers as a result of the use of that service to give
feedback on intermediate CPAN developers releases for PDL based on PDL git
master.

My current goals are to stabilize the PDL-2.x development chain and to
implement a new "PDL3" architecture and refactoring to fix a number of
problems with the PDL-2.x implementation that are pretty near intractable
as a result of accumulated cruft and idiosyncracies of implementation
resulting from its evolution. By focusing on a new core computational
kernel and architecture the hope is to be able to transition PDL modules
from the PDL-2.x Basic/Core to the PDL3/PDL::Tiny in some fashion.

In fact, my plan to host development for PDL::Tiny at github is, in part,
to better familiarize myself with the github workflow and to take advantage
of the advertised benefits of github development.

Post by Joel Berger
I want that for PDL and I have done what I can to
facilitate that move. With that hope, I will gladly
contribute that time and effort, because I believe that
such a move is in PDL's interest. I will do so even now
that I rarely use PDL, because I think it is an important
project for Perl5 and it is a way that I can help.

I very much appreciate all that you have contributed to the PDL community,
spearheading the Alien::Base module, and being willing to help in a PDL
move from sf.net to github even if no longer a user of PDL.

Post by Joel Berger
Without that hope, I have no interest in maintaining a parallel PDL

website,

Post by Joel Berger
and neither is one necessary.

I feel the same. I have some goals for PDL (a few immediate ones listed
above), limited time for direct PDL development, and no interest to replace
my PDL development cycles by the overhead of learning github so I could
support and maintain a move of PDL from sf.net to github.

I'm not against a move to github, just not able or interested to support
the PDL project move there myself. The PDL sf.net site is much improved
since the Allura makeover but, frankly, it already does the job for PDL
development and _I_ know enough to keep things going in my responsibility
as PDL release manager.

However, I can say that I'm hoping for some new blood for PDL development
as I don't see myself as pump-king for PDL forever...

Cheers,
Chris

Post by Joel Berger
Joel

Post by Chris Marshall
As far as I've seen, the situation hasn't changed. Joel implemented

most of the static pages on github (he says there's a little bit more that
needs to be done). Still no volunteer to support and maintain the page on
github.

Post by Joel Berger

Post by Chris Marshall

The volunteers are in place. Surely it's time to switch over?
From: Chris Marshall
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2014 10:14 PM
To: Joel Berger
Cc: pdl-porters
Subject: Re: [Pdl-porters] Can #pdl ideas -> PDL development?
I'm pretty sure no one volunteered to support and maintain the web page.
If I misunderstood you, I'm very sorry as we could have had the github
pages for quite a while now.
--Chris

Post by Joel Berger

Post by Chris Marshall
Discussion of moving PDL web site to static github
- Seems reasonable but needs support
- We didn't have any volunteers the last time this was proposed
- With maintainer it would be nice to have more timely web support

Just to correct this point, not only did I volunteer to do this, I did

it and it is running at http://pdlporters.github.io/ . There were only a
few minor nits, first that metacpan's documentation (from which the static
site pulls pod) doesn't render all the pod in PDL for reasons being
discussed on another thread. Second the news is now out of date, though
that's easy enough to correct. Third, I did port much, but not all, of the
wiki to github wiki, perhaps someone could check it and port the remainder?

Post by Joel Berger

Post by Chris Marshall

Post by Joel Berger
Joel

[Ed .]

Post by Chris Marshall
However, I can say that I'm hoping for some new blood for PDL development
as I don't see myself as pump-king for PDL forever...

Hoping for while actively/passively discouraging? Fascinating.

Ed

[Chris Marshall]

Post by Ed .

Post by Chris Marshall
However, I can say that I'm hoping for some new blood for PDL development
as I don't see myself as pump-king for PDL forever...

Hoping for while actively/passively discouraging? Fascinating.
Ed

wow

-chm

[Zakariyya Mughal]

Post by Joel Berger

Post by Chris Marshall
Discussion of moving PDL web site to static github
- Seems reasonable but needs support
- We didn't have any volunteers the last time this was proposed
- With maintainer it would be nice to have more timely web support

Third, I did port much, but not all, of the wiki to
github wiki, perhaps someone could check it and port the remainder?

Done! I used the SourceForge API[^export] to grab all the wiki pages and
attachments out of the SourceForge wiki.

The results are at <https://github.com/zmughal/pdl/wiki>. I can go ahead
and push to the PDLPorters/pdl GitHub wiki if the results look sane. I
cleaned a lot of things that were broken on the SourceForge wiki after
various migrations (HTML entities, old bug tracker URLs) that would have
been quite painful to do through the SourceForge interface. It is
important to note that every GitHub wiki is just a Git repository of
markup which makes restructuring relatively easy.

Some pages:

- <https://github.com/zmughal/pdl/wiki/The-power-of-PDL>
- <https://github.com/zmughal/pdl/wiki/Plotting-with-PDL::Graphics::Gnuplot>
- <https://github.com/zmughal/pdl/wiki/Results-from-the-Fall-2009-Usage-and-Installation-Survey>

Future steps are to take inspiration from other GitHub wikis[^wiki-showcase]
and make things such as an organised cookbook. I want to see the PDL
wiki showcased on that page as well. :-D

Cheers,
- Zaki Mughal

[^export]: <https://github.com/zmughal/sourceforge-wiki-export>.

[^wiki-showcase]: <https://github.com/showcases/projects-with-great-wikis>

Post by Joel Berger
Joel

[Zakariyya Mughal]

Post by Joel Berger

Post by Chris Marshall
Discussion of moving PDL web site to static github
- Seems reasonable but needs support
- We didn't have any volunteers the last time this was proposed
- With maintainer it would be nice to have more timely web support

Third, I did port much, but not all, of the wiki to
github wiki, perhaps someone could check it and port the remainder?

Done! I used the SourceForge API[^export] to grab all the wiki pages and
attachments out of the SourceForge wiki.

The results are at <https://github.com/zmughal/pdl/wiki>. I can go ahead
and push to the PDLPorters/pdl GitHub wiki if the results look sane. I
cleaned a lot of things that were broken on the SourceForge wiki after
various migrations (HTML entities, old bug tracker URLs) that would have
been quite painful to do through the SourceForge interface. It is
important to note that every GitHub wiki is just a Git repository of
markup which makes restructuring relatively easy.

Some pages:

- <https://github.com/zmughal/pdl/wiki/The-power-of-PDL>
- <https://github.com/zmughal/pdl/wiki/Plotting-with-PDL::Graphics::Gnuplot>
- <https://github.com/zmughal/pdl/wiki/Results-from-the-Fall-2009-Usage-and-Installation-Survey>

Future steps are to take inspiration from other GitHub wikis[^wiki-showcase]
and make things such as an organised cookbook. I want to see the PDL
wiki showcased on that page as well. :-D

Cheers,
- Zaki Mughal

[^export]: <https://github.com/zmughal/sourceforge-wiki-export>.

[^wiki-showcase]: <https://github.com/showcases/projects-with-great-wikis>

Post by Joel Berger
Joel

[Zakariyya Mughal]

Hello all,

Has anyone gotten a chance to look at the wiki migration?

The changes I made fixed a lot of errors that were piling up in the SF
wiki. For example, compare
<http://sourceforge.net/p/pdl/wiki/PDL_for_IDL_users/> with
<https://github.com/PDLPorters/pdl/wiki/PDL-for-IDL-users>.

On the SF wiki, right at the very top in the code block, there are HTML
entities that should not be there:

perldl&gt; help help # How to use the help system.
perldl&gt; help &lt;subject&gt; # Reference material on &lt;subject&gt;
perldl&gt; apropos &lt;subject&gt; # Search for keywords or functions.

These are now fixed throughout the GitHub wiki and I have been adding
Perl syntax highlighting to the code blocks.

Cheers,
- Zaki Mughal

Post by Zakariyya Mughal

Post by Joel Berger

Post by Chris Marshall
Discussion of moving PDL web site to static github
- Seems reasonable but needs support
- We didn't have any volunteers the last time this was proposed
- With maintainer it would be nice to have more timely web support

Third, I did port much, but not all, of the wiki to
github wiki, perhaps someone could check it and port the remainder?

Done! I used the SourceForge API[^export] to grab all the wiki pages and
attachments out of the SourceForge wiki.
The results are at <https://github.com/zmughal/pdl/wiki>. I can go ahead
and push to the PDLPorters/pdl GitHub wiki if the results look sane. I
cleaned a lot of things that were broken on the SourceForge wiki after
various migrations (HTML entities, old bug tracker URLs) that would have
been quite painful to do through the SourceForge interface. It is
important to note that every GitHub wiki is just a Git repository of
markup which makes restructuring relatively easy.
- <https://github.com/zmughal/pdl/wiki/The-power-of-PDL>
- <https://github.com/zmughal/pdl/wiki/Plotting-with-PDL::Graphics::Gnuplot>
- <https://github.com/zmughal/pdl/wiki/Results-from-the-Fall-2009-Usage-and-Installation-Survey>
Future steps are to take inspiration from other GitHub wikis[^wiki-showcase]
and make things such as an organised cookbook. I want to see the PDL
wiki showcased on that page as well. :-D
Cheers,
- Zaki Mughal
[^export]: <https://github.com/zmughal/sourceforge-wiki-export>.
[^wiki-showcase]: <https://github.com/showcases/projects-with-great-wikis>

Post by Joel Berger
Joel

_______________________________________________
PDL-porters mailing list
http://mailman.jach.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/pdl-porters

[David Mertens]

Hey Zaki,

This looks great. I had forgotten I had written an intro document on PDL +
SDL.

Frustratingly, SourceForge appears to have lost all content in code
sections that include the less-than sign:
http://sourceforge.net/p/pdl/wiki/Animation_with_SDL/diff?v2=9&v1=8

This means that the first example in the document is flawed, since it
terminates in the middle of a for loop. :-/

But, the code that is rendered looks good on Github!

David

Post by Zakariyya Mughal
Hello all,
Has anyone gotten a chance to look at the wiki migration?
The changes I made fixed a lot of errors that were piling up in the SF
wiki. For example, compare
<http://sourceforge.net/p/pdl/wiki/PDL_for_IDL_users/> with
<https://github.com/PDLPorters/pdl/wiki/PDL-for-IDL-users>.
On the SF wiki, right at the very top in the code block, there are HTML
These are now fixed throughout the GitHub wiki and I have been adding
Perl syntax highlighting to the code blocks.
Cheers,
- Zaki Mughal

Post by Zakariyya Mughal

Post by Ed .
On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 9:26 AM, Chris Marshall <

Post by Chris Marshall
Discussion of moving PDL web site to static github
- Seems reasonable but needs support
- We didn't have any volunteers the last time this was proposed
- With maintainer it would be nice to have more timely web support

Third, I did port much, but not all, of the wiki to
github wiki, perhaps someone could check it and port the remainder?

Done! I used the SourceForge API[^export] to grab all the wiki pages and
attachments out of the SourceForge wiki.
The results are at <https://github.com/zmughal/pdl/wiki>. I can go ahead
and push to the PDLPorters/pdl GitHub wiki if the results look sane. I
cleaned a lot of things that were broken on the SourceForge wiki after
various migrations (HTML entities, old bug tracker URLs) that would have
been quite painful to do through the SourceForge interface. It is
important to note that every GitHub wiki is just a Git repository of
markup which makes restructuring relatively easy.
- <https://github.com/zmughal/pdl/wiki/The-power-of-PDL>
- <

https://github.com/zmughal/pdl/wiki/Plotting-with-PDL::Graphics::Gnuplot>

Post by Zakariyya Mughal
- <

https://github.com/zmughal/pdl/wiki/Results-from-the-Fall-2009-Usage-and-Installation-Survey

Post by Zakariyya Mughal
Future steps are to take inspiration from other GitHub

wikis[^wiki-showcase]

Post by Zakariyya Mughal
and make things such as an organised cookbook. I want to see the PDL
wiki showcased on that page as well. :-D
Cheers,
- Zaki Mughal
[^export]: <https://github.com/zmughal/sourceforge-wiki-export>.
[^wiki-showcase]: <

https://github.com/showcases/projects-with-great-wikis>

Post by Zakariyya Mughal

Post by Ed .
Joel

_______________________________________________
PDL-porters mailing list
http://mailman.jach.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/pdl-porters

_______________________________________________
PDL-porters mailing list
http://mailman.jach.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/pdl-porters

[Derek Lamb]

I have not but will try later today. Yes, there was some problem with the migration of the wiki from mediawiki to the SF "allura" wiki platform that I was not able to address. SF wasn't too helpful either. More later.

Derek

Post by Zakariyya Mughal
Hello all,
Has anyone gotten a chance to look at the wiki migration?
The changes I made fixed a lot of errors that were piling up in the SF
wiki. For example, compare
<http://sourceforge.net/p/pdl/wiki/PDL_for_IDL_users/> with
<https://github.com/PDLPorters/pdl/wiki/PDL-for-IDL-users>.
On the SF wiki, right at the very top in the code block, there are HTML
These are now fixed throughout the GitHub wiki and I have been adding
Perl syntax highlighting to the code blocks.
Cheers,
- Zaki Mughal

Post by Zakariyya Mughal

Post by Joel Berger

Post by Chris Marshall
Discussion of moving PDL web site to static github
- Seems reasonable but needs support
- We didn't have any volunteers the last time this was proposed
- With maintainer it would be nice to have more timely web support

Third, I did port much, but not all, of the wiki to
github wiki, perhaps someone could check it and port the remainder?

Done! I used the SourceForge API[^export] to grab all the wiki pages and
attachments out of the SourceForge wiki.
The results are at <https://github.com/zmughal/pdl/wiki>. I can go ahead
and push to the PDLPorters/pdl GitHub wiki if the results look sane. I
cleaned a lot of things that were broken on the SourceForge wiki after
various migrations (HTML entities, old bug tracker URLs) that would have
been quite painful to do through the SourceForge interface. It is
important to note that every GitHub wiki is just a Git repository of
markup which makes restructuring relatively easy.
- <https://github.com/zmughal/pdl/wiki/The-power-of-PDL>
- <https://github.com/zmughal/pdl/wiki/Plotting-with-PDL::Graphics::Gnuplot>
- <https://github.com/zmughal/pdl/wiki/Results-from-the-Fall-2009-Usage-and-Installation-Survey>
Future steps are to take inspiration from other GitHub wikis[^wiki-showcase]
and make things such as an organised cookbook. I want to see the PDL
wiki showcased on that page as well. :-D
Cheers,
- Zaki Mughal
[^export]: <https://github.com/zmughal/sourceforge-wiki-export>.
[^wiki-showcase]: <https://github.com/showcases/projects-with-great-wikis>

Post by Joel Berger
Joel

_______________________________________________
PDL-porters mailing list
http://mailman.jach.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/pdl-porters

_______________________________________________
PDL-porters mailing list
http://mailman.jach.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/pdl-porters

[Ed .]

The comms problem will be successfully dealt with when/if PDL development moves to github. Issues are a breeze to use, and do threading in a way that email simply cannot.

From: Chris Marshall
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 3:26 PM
To: pdl-porters
Subject: [Pdl-porters] Can #pdl ideas -> PDL development?

This is a brief note on a frustration I have trying to encourage and coordinate PDL development efforts.


A persistent difficulty is that there is a sort of impedance mismatch between users of #pdl and perldl or pdl-porters list users in terms of expectations and how problems might be posed and solved. Unfortunately, there are some pretty interesting points being discussed but to date, no one has figured out a way to bring those ideas into perldl or pdl-porters for the record. I've tried reviewing the logs when I am able to and responding asynchronously. That didn't work because the difference is more one of expectations between the user approaches rather than just the discussions themselves.


I'm not able to participate regularly in #pdl but I did try to join #pdl more often with the hopes of improving communication around the Aug 2014 timeframe. The outcome wasn't positive in the sense that I burned several days of PDL time trying to communicate with little PDL development to show and no idea about how better to get #pdl ideas into PDL development. I'm happy to have some time this winter to get back to PDL development. I would be happier if we could figure out how to keep development and contributors moving constructively forward more consistently.


Here are some of the topics from the last couple of weeks that were interesting to me and some thoughts


* A new perl array extension Array::APX

- It appears to be perl only

- It might be useful that PDL::Tiny support a perl-only version (same sugar, no XS)

* Inline::ExtUtils::Depends support for PDL

- Still working on the git clean up

- It'll be in PDL-2.008 or sooner with help

* PDL release schedule

- We're on an about 1 release per year

- Mostly developer and test/verification limited

- PDL is *used* for research and stability is important

* PDL3 == second system

- PDL3 was a term to separate PDL-2.x architecture from

a refactored implementation

- For stability, the idea was to use PDL3 to reimplement the PDL core

- Allow support for PDL-2.x

- Ideally PDL3 core could be used instead of PDL/Basic/Core stuff

- Trying to avoid Numpy->Numeric->NumPy mess that python went through

* PDL::Tiny

- POGL (Perl OpenGL) needs a minimal but powerful array capability

- Other modules reinvent computation tools

- Gives a chance for direct work on the new PDL3 core capability

- Setting up github for fast iteration and my own education

- not coupled to PDL-2.x development except desire interoperable

* RPerl for PDL3
- ?

* Support for row major and col major ordering in PDL3

- PDL3 (hence PDL::Tiny) has improved type and data layout support

- Specific use cases on what is desired are needed

- It should be up to the user which data ordering is used

- To what level can this be supported?

* Use of Roles in PDL3 / PDL::Tiny

- Yes!

- Allow better structure for PDL

- PDL3 as a whole <-> like many PDL-2.x capabilities

- But can look at by role/component

- Elegant, general, compatible with perl5 oo and perl6 oo ideas

* Discussion of *.pd -> *.xs.PL

- *.pd was the original file name for PP XS extensions

- given the issues with http://search.cpan.org and http://metacpan.org

changing to *.xs.PL seems to make sense.

- Might be worth looking at perldl and pdl-porters archives for previous

discussions and decision process on the topic

* Plan for PDL3

- Start kernel out

- Build in types, data, other requirements

- Moo[se] seems elegant and powerful way to express

- Performance is king so we need to monitor

- idea use a C-OO framework to implement PDL3 OO at the C layer

- Call perl from C

- Call C from perl

- PDL3 methods could be called from both/either

- Allow interoperate with both C and C++ levels of libraries

- Enlightenment Object model is possible candidate

- Need to develop specification

- Add support for Moo roles and method modifiers

- Seems easier to start here then to roll our own

* Discussion of moving PDL web site to static github

- Seems reasonable but needs support

- We didn't have any volunteers the last time this was proposed

- With maintainer it would be nice to have more timely web support


As you can see, there is a lot going on of interest that would be nice to have input into our development work. I welcome any ideas or further discussion. Please feel free to join #pdl for discussion but *please* take the time to collect the good ideas and bring them in for more formal discussion. I hate to see good ideas going to waste but, frankly, this pulling gold out of the stream bed by hand is something that should be handled by the #pdl discussion participants themselves.


Suggestions to make that possible, VERY welcome,
Chris




*



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Chris Marshall]

This was with regards to moving the PDL web pages to github and not about
relocating the pdl project from sf.net to github.com.

Post by Ed .
The comms problem will be successfully dealt with when/if PDL
development moves to github. Issues are a breeze to use, and do threading
in a way that email simply cannot.
*Sent:* Sunday, December 21, 2014 3:26 PM
*Subject:* [Pdl-porters] Can #pdl ideas -> PDL development?
This is a brief note on a frustration I have trying to encourage and
coordinate PDL development efforts.
A persistent difficulty is that there is a sort of impedance mismatch
between users of #pdl and perldl or pdl-porters list users in terms of
expectations and how problems might be posed and solved. Unfortunately,
there are some pretty interesting points being discussed but to date, no
one has figured out a way to bring those ideas into perldl or pdl-porters
for the record. I've tried reviewing the logs when I am able to and
responding asynchronously. That didn't work because the difference is more
one of expectations between the user approaches rather than just the
discussions themselves.
I'm not able to participate regularly in #pdl but I did try to join #pdl
more often with the hopes of improving communication around the Aug 2014
timeframe. The outcome wasn't positive in the sense that I burned several
days of PDL time trying to communicate with little PDL development to show
and no idea about how better to get #pdl ideas into PDL development. I'm
happy to have some time this winter to get back to PDL development. I
would be happier if we could figure out how to keep development and
contributors moving constructively forward more consistently.

[Zakariyya Mughal]

Post by David Mertens
Hey Zaki,
This looks great. I had forgotten I had written an intro document on PDL +
SDL.
Frustratingly, SourceForge appears to have lost all content in code
http://sourceforge.net/p/pdl/wiki/Animation_with_SDL/diff?v2=9&v1=8
This means that the first example in the document is flawed, since it
terminates in the middle of a for loop. :-/

Hmm...that's unfortunate. I tried to grab a cached copy from The Wayback
Machine, but I wasn't able to find that specific page. However, I was
able to find other pages and made the appropriate fixes to the GitHub
wiki (list of pages: <https://github.com/zmughal/pdl/issues/3>).

Post by David Mertens
But, the code that is rendered looks good on Github!

Yes and the pages load faster! :-D

Post by David Mertens
David
I have not but will try later today. Yes, there was some problem with
the migration of the wiki from mediawiki to the SF "allura" wiki
platform that I was not able to address. SF wasn't too helpful
either. More later.

If you happen to have a dump of the raw HTML / markup for the MediaWiki
pages, that would definitely help me clean it up some more. :-)

Post by David Mertens
Derek

Cheers,
- Zaki Mughal